Make Church Healthy Again • with Joshua Ham

[0:00] maybe there is hope for the church after all if you've paid attention to some of my other and more recent videos where I'm talking about the nature of the church or even where I'm talking about my vision for the future of this channel you'll probably be able to piece together that there is a pretty hairy story in my personal life as it relates to my relationship with what you might call the institutional church I've seen a lot of the excesses I've seen a lot of the mistreatment I've seen a lot of the misbehavior that is often pointed to by critics of the institutional Church of which I would still consider myself one that I think lead to things like people wanting to leave the church in general and not want to come back not wanting to even be a part of the body of Christ anymore but it's conversations like this one that I just had with my good buddy Josh ham that are giving me hope and causing me to look instead of being a Hardline Zero Tolerance No No Quarter No

[0:48] Holds Barred abolitionist I want to see everybody Return to House churches and have no paid clergy at all which is kind of my my utopian pipe dream instead I'm happy to see that there are faithful men who in spite of the excesses of this system and in spite of all of The Temptations that it brings are finding a way to thread the needle and utilize A system that I think is extra biblical and maybe even broken and instead of letting it corrupt them like the one ring they're able to keep it at a distance and instead choose to prioritize the same things that the scriptures choose even if the system and the structure isn't right so what you're about to see is a conversation I have with a good friend of mine Josh ham and his story is wonderful I hope it's an encouragement to you as much as it was an encouragement to me to talk to him so without further Ado here's Josh H so joshh I'm super excited to have you on today um we we got connected a couple of months back even just uh before the

[1:39] debate which is really fun for me because I've gotten conect connected with a lot of really cool people after the debate but you were the ones that I was able to to reach out to and get to know a little bit uh even before my debate with James White which was uh which was really cool and we've we've got a lot in common so uh let's go back a little bit how did you and I first get connected I think it was just through hearing about your debate and be became friends on Facebook and I started watching some of your videos just had of curiosity and it was like this guy's speaking the same language I was just nodding my head vigorously as I was watching and I was we started messaging and he sent me a few specific on to check out that were very helpful and then I got a copy of your book and I read it in about two days just it was just such an easy and great read and just so much of the stuff I've been

[2:27] working through personally in the last couple years you just put it so well and uh I've already recommended several people and it's been a huge help to me and look forward to maybe taking like a small group or something through it in the future uh something I like to do and uh just I just I love all the book references too so that was great there are fair few of those in the book yeah a lot of Lord of the Rings a lot of Narnia lot of uh even some video game stuff in there as you kind of do some digging but uh no that's that's awesome I I really was uh you were a huge encouragement to me even in just the weeks leading up to the debate simply because um before the debate I was in a situation and this will certainly come up based on what we're talking about today which is like healthy healthy Church Body of Christ practices and and how people um Can can

[3:16] prioritize what God wants to prioritize in the church in the way that we do things in the west which is so often counter to God's goals unfortunately but we'll kind of unpack that as we go but I was in a SE I was in a season kind of at the beginning of this summer that was pretty vulnerable for me it was a pretty um I had just left a church context in which I was literally compared with the devil I was called the most dangerous kind of church member I'd had people that I really loved and trusted throw out some pretty slanderous crazy kind of unhinged crazy stories about me and my wife and my my family and like things that had transpired with us so I was feeling a little crazy at that season of life like you know people were people were saying and then believing things

[4:03] that I knew not to be true about my family and I just felt nuts I felt like you know maybe even the the the stuff that I had been saying the things that I had been teaching in my videos and stuff was just crazy and doesn't mean everything I say is right um I don't have a corner on the truth like any no nobody does but um I I like to think that I have a good reason for holding a lot of the things that I believe but I was just it was a really it was a really vulnerable time and your friendship started up with me in such a way way that it kind of calmed that feeling like oh no there there there are actually smart capable clearly like Godly character people who have maybe even gone through certain things that are difficult you know maybe even similar things to me that have come out the other side again not 100% agreement that's fine that's not the measure of a good relationship with a Jesus follower

[4:51] but like seeing some of the same things that I'm seeing and and not saying yeah you're crazy you shouldn't talk about this uh you're literally like the devil so you came you God sent you as a friend to me at a really timely moment to kind of help me navigate a period of transition where now I'm on the other side of the debate and I'm surrounded by people it's kind of almost the opposite problem I'm surrounded by people saying like what you're saying makes sense in a way that I've never heard it before and I have to be I I have to work on humility in that space and not be like hey you know everybody agrees with me now so um just I wanted to thank you and I wanted to say that I thank God for you because God sent you to me at at a great time and I'm really thankful that we got connected and I'm thankful you enjoyed the book and everything too but you also shared some of your story with me you sent me kind of a video of of another

[5:40] person who had interviewed you and kind of walked through your thing which is kind of how we discussed we got to the point where today we're going to be discussing the church broadly um and your your story was pretty encouraging to me too so I'm GNA link that video in the in the show notes for this particular video as well but I would like if you could for the people who don't know you uh who don't yet have the privilege of knowing you could you also share maybe like a five to 10 minute version of what it was that you went through in terms of your church experience kind of on the inside in a ministerial role that has led you in something of a different direction from what I think people might assume uh leading to where you are today sounds good um and thank you for kind words and it's been fun to get to know you a little bit too and I've been looking forward to this discussion something's

[6:27] big on on my heart uh has been through a lot of different things over the last few years or so just H 10 years of being in Ministry and congratulations that's awesome hard to believe and I had the privilege of growing up in a wonderful Christian Home a great church A Large church and Christian School that whole the whole nine yards that kind of thinking back I was probably more of my waking hours were on that church property in school than in my own home probably just sheer hours wise of waking hours and uh and I'm thankful for that was it perfect though situation is but I had a lot of wonderful people uh through that and like any normal teenager you know kind of went work through some different things and God just shook me

[7:16] up and so uh surrendered my life whatever he had and I went to my pastor and he said he almost jokingly from the pulpit just said just don't be afraid of that terrible thing called preaching and I was just kind of like what to me and and I don't even know if he meant anything by that but God began to kind of put a desire in my heart for Ministry and I had no idea what that was other than just seeing the different pastors and things in my life that God had used so I went to Bible college and that was a an interesting experience and it was it was a lot of good met a lot of great friends met my wife so if nothing else I I I definitely got that out of the deal and a lot of good examples but also saw some things that yeah I don't think I ever want to do that some of it was just the me style of ministry the very

[8:07] topheavy um even beer based that goes along with a lot of that um and so I thought well I don't really want to do that um and long story short well God led us to be on staff at a church in Kansas and um our pastor he was a young Pastor I was his first assistant so we were I was kind of the guinea pig and uh we went to all the different Church growth stuff in the Independent Baptist world and all the things connected to that and those lot of stuff over time it was like I can't do that I can't be in that mold I can't preach that way I can't perform up to a certain level um and it was not for lack of effort my wife's secretary I was wearing all the different hats you know driving the bus

[8:54] running the kids stuff doing the teen stuff all the different hats you know that was was our life that was we didn't have money for anything else so we we did Church you know pretty much every day and the time we had off we just kind of crashed and tried to like get ourselves together to do it again and so after the end of that time you know being there about three years we were just fried um we had one Sunday off in about three and a half years where we were actually not there and so we were fried on that level you know I was I was about ready to quit the ministry because I thought I can't do what I'm told the ministry is um long story short I wind up even having to get a full-time job due to the financial situation at the church and it was actually during that time that I actually personally started

[9:42] to thrive which for most people they're kind of like oh you need to go find a full-time position where else I was like you know what's the point of that like God had told me to leave and God used that season I was literally working as a mall security guard walking around this large outlet mall overnight it's like God what I doing you know what's going on and God used that found some different resources that were helpful of basically saying this isn't what Ministry is and God just kind of put that out my heart I did call you to be a pastor it's just not what you thought it was and that was just the most freeing thing to experience and our church that time our pastor was actually leaving to go another church and we were there the interim just kind of helping things but I was just on cloud nine in a lot of ways even though was working you

[10:33] know a lame job all this stuff you know all these seemingly negative things are happening God used that to point me to him and just kind of have my eyes open a little bit to what's out there and certain key people that God used um but those just the mindset of you know you can't be friends with people in the church um it's more of this CE mentality this performance-based uh I had a pastor one time tell me one of the first Fellowship things we went to in another church and you know I was told go get the other pastors and learn from them okay I'm like 23 years old trying to figure out you know how to ask these guys questions and the one guy told me something the fact that you're not worth what they're paying and I'm like do you know how much I'm paid you know and he meant it as like don't be lazy and but

[11:21] it was just kind of like a wow is that am I seen for what I bring to the table you know you got to live up to his expectations we'd have people guests come in and be like oh yeah you need to be given a Sunday school room and you need to fill it up lead them to Christ disciple them so they're tithing to pay your salary and within a year all of these very unhealthy things that weren't really put on me thankfully but they were there as like oh this is what should be happening and well I didn't know how to do that and I could I'm not a Salesman that's not who I am and so as I struggled through all these different things and started working through stuff God brought a few key people in a different times that helped me begin to kind of detach from a lot of

[12:11] that and so that was just huge um and the long story short I get a call out of the blue uh from a pastor in Pennsylvania said he wanted to hire me like who are you you know I never met him or heard from him before just a mutual friend and God brought us to that church to to be at and that was the complete opposite there it was oh do whatever you want you have youth group of 10 teens and do whatever you want with all your time I was like um what do I do and so I was kind of going stir crazy at first but God knew we needed that kind of decompressing time for ourselves for our family um we just began to read a lot work through a lot of different doctrinal things that always been taught as this is XYZ this is how it is began to realize not

[12:59] everything was exactly as I was told that it was U but I had time to take one thing at a time work through it um but the end of our time there was was hard because there was no not necessary structure but there was a lot of reactional leadership and I love the pastor still keep in touch with him um there certain things that I was wanting to do oh yeah and then someone get upset because I was touching their sacred cow on accident or whatever and then that would get shut down um and things like that which was equally frustrating um but I also understood he's you know if I'm not in charge whatever you know it's not my call to make um then there was some other things that happened with that that it was just we knew our time was done there or else it was gonna be

[13:47] not good for us or for the church um and long story short um I through that time my current pastor had become he was a pastor in the area that preached for few times for fill a Pulpit for him and God just knit our hearts over discipl making and what that looked like and we kind of brainstorm to work through different things together and he had asked me like a year before to come be his replacement and I said there's no way I could live in the rural Pennsylvania I'd be nuts you know I just go insane I'm a suburb kid and over the next year God took away any excuse I could have had and we were just getting with them actually to tell them that we were expecting our daughter who they had been praying for year a couple years with us about that my wife and I Foster adopted parents um we um

[14:36] had been waiting and found out and told them and just we celebrating and they're like well why don't you just come work with us and what would that look like and he started kind of laying out like you know that actually sounds pretty incredible and God just kind of put it together so the end of 2020 God brought us to where we are and uh kind of was pastoring waiting working together summer of 2022 made it official we just kind of flip-flopped and so my pastor he's now my assistant which he's still my pastor so we it's just been really great and he's been incredible incredibly humble with the whole situation and just been supportive and just really working together um and that's really spoken volumes to our church and Community with that because

[15:23] that's not a normal situation and that's right welcome that credit goes to him for being as gracious as he's been with me yeah wow that's and it again there's just so much happening there there's so much to unpack that you just spoke up in your story there's questions about um you know what we go into situations where we're talking about the church and we just come with assumptions about what the church is what a pastor is uh even interestingly what a sermon is uh what um you know Church leadership is how do we do structure uh what what sort of structure should there be and I have my views on those things and they're pretty controversial and I own that and I I I'm not shying away from those things but I might take certain things to what I

[16:12] would call a Biblical extreme where I I I Define certain things a certain way and I'm pretty pretty stubborn about that but there are nonetheless it's like there are biblical there's biblical data underg guring and answering every single one of those questions what is the church what is a pastor what is you know a sermon what are um what are the goals that the church should be engaged in and you described what I think is an extremely common set of circumstances that unfortunately I would say a ignores those definitions either out of ignorance or or deliberately and then B sets up a structure and a system that's optimized for goals that are different from what the Bible shows and what Jesus had in mind when he first established the the community of his

[17:01] followers his body on Earth his hands and feet that we call the church but there's a lot there I'm so thankful that you've landed in a much healthier spot character accounts for a lot and that's going to be kind of a theme as we move forward is like look I I would love love love to see most institutional churches completely shut down most denominations abandoned and have us return back to like a house Church Network thing where we're all um trying to actually do the Jesus thing in community where we're at and kind of sit down roots that way whatever probably not going to happen that's like the that's the extreme like 100% Zero Tolerance policy version of this in pursuit of something that is just just healthier I just want to see the church get just healthier day by day um there are going to be expressions of

[17:49] this on the way that I think look a lot like what you're going through and I'm going to applaud that everywhere I see it and where you're at now is just is is a huge encouragement to me that that sort of thing is is happening but I think it probably would be helpful for us to look at some definitions of terms and see if we can say hey biblically speaking are there Clues as to what this thing is that might shift our understanding on some of the Sacred cows that people have when it comes to how we do Church in the west you know might be helpful if we did some of that yeah that'd be great cool so um when I say when I ask you hey what is the church um we got to kind of start there I really want to get to the question of what is a pastor where you heard God to tell you being a pastor is now what you think it is I'm excited to unpack that a little bit but let's kind of start a step sooner than that like what is the church

[18:37] biblically speaking from your Vantage Point yeah one if I could just distinctly put it something like a local body of Believers that are committed around the same thing uh I just started preaching to First John um and the verse three and four of chapter one talks about the fellowship that they have more not the handshaking time in the middle of the service you know not that kind of fellow having in common having in unity around who Jesus is that we're in Christ you know we've got some structure of Doctrine you know not teaching you know against the Dei and Humanity of Christ you know first John goes into some of that but there's this there's a core belief system we're United in the person of Jesus Christ um and that it's it's a family it's a body a community those are the biblical ideas that we see not a CEO

[19:29] structure you know trying to franchise you know off it's an organic living breathing thing that may look and feel as you mentioned differently in different places at different times but it's it's not a building we talk that with our kids we live in parsonage next door so you know tell we're going to church you know trying to that's the building you know church is US yeah you know well say five he doesn't get that yet but I'm trying to use those types of terminology for our church as a whole like this building can burn down we still have a church not who we are that's so good that's so good I like I like your definition I might Nuance it a little differently so let me tell like tell me what you think of this as I kind of put another another shot another shot at this forward when I think of the church

[20:16] there's kind of like the church is all of Christ's people all throughout history and in the present day who are living like Jesus's King and they've kind of transferred their allegiance from the kingdom of darkness into his kingdom and they want to live like he's Lord they want to live like he's King so that's the church okay if we're going to use the noun as the church now there's local expressions of that reality right and it's those local expressions of that reality that we're looking at when we talk about the community and all those things but there's also a sense in which I'm like you and I are not part of the same Church community we're not part of the same local expression of the body of Christ but we are still both part of the body of Christ and so the things that apply to the church can apply to you and me in that you and I can encourage one another

[21:04] we can build one another up we can weep with those who weep and and and rejoice with those who Rejoice if you share a prayer request I can pray for you if you if I share a burden and a struggle and I hand something off to you and say Josh I'm really going through it right now as it relates to this thing you have a relationship with me as a part of the church the big the big deal right um the universal thing that you can you can encourage me in a mutual relation relationship based on the fact that we both share the same commitment to Jesus as Lord and that's kind of that first level but then there's the local expression of that which is it's not like a different church right it's the same church it's just a local expression of that Community where people are in each other's lives in a more intimate way simply by virtue of being in the same space together and inhabiting a physical existence in the same Community

[21:54] surrounded by people they can all have relationships with too and invite you know this this opens up Hospitality I can't have you into my actual home and serve you a meal because you're on the other side of the country um so that does that Nuance would you agree with that Nuance are there differences there or definitely and it's been interesting we've been in a unique season where we have extended family and friends that are not physically near us that are in unhealthy places and my wife and I've been sounding boards in a sense functioning as an extended almost direct Way Church of like this is not good what is going on here and trying to fill that role that is not being filled and it's yeah we have one friend of ours were like you need to just move here because like this you

[22:42] know one of my wife's family friends you know it's just like we're trying to help you but we're limited on the geography um there's Fellowship there's encouragement there's all those things and Technology what you know is it yeah incredible thing to do something like this you know you know yeah 30 years ago this no one would have even thought of you know this um but yeah oh I definitely agree it's it's the the body of Christ as a whole and that is one thing that's really changed for good is seeing previously was my church is the best church if you live in our area you would be in our church because it is the best it was that mentality it was that implication if you don't go you are a second tier Christian that was literally how I thought was taught to thought when

[23:30] we're going out cusing whatever and things like that and now it's there's a whole wonderful network of churches in our area that I'm connected to Pastor friends they have differences on all several secondary levels but it's we're a church as a whole we're working together and that's just been really neat we've got some really good local guys who kind of head some of that up in our area which is just a huge it's like wow it's it's like it's own miniature versions of leaders from different churches coming together and it's it's been fun to experience that um because it it it tears down those walls and it takes away the competition it's not oh someone from our area goes to your church they should be going to mine it no God wants them there that's where

[24:17] they need to be and I'm that's right I'm great that and that's been new learning over the last few years has helped a lot yeah no it's again it's it's wonderful so few a few things that immediately arose as you were expressing some of that it's like um I I just I take Jesus really seriously in John 17 when he says that the world will know that the father sent him the world will know it's he doesn't qualify it in any way he simply says the world will know that the father sent him when we okay those he and he's explicitly says this prayer right after he says I pray not only for these men like these ones around me but for those who will trust in me through their word right uh and he's so he's praying for

[25:05] literally everyone who has ever come to saving faith in Jesus essentially this is his prayer for them that they would be one just as he and the father are one so that the world would know that that the father sent Jesus so yeah what what right do we have to to divide from people who have second and third order disagreements on the same level that like Paul and Peter might have had a second third order disagreement or you know maybe we can't have the same exact philosophy of ministry so it would make it difficult for us to work together like if it's a second orth order issue and they're not chopping at the base of the tree that is the faith once delivered for all the saints like they's someone that I should be looking at as a partner as a brother or sister in Christ and even if they were chopping at that base I am I not supposed to also love my enemies maybe I sharply disagree with

[25:54] them and I I call out what they're doing is error but I'm also still supposed to love them so that was something that stood out to me as you know I I don't think we take that seriously enough but then if we Define the church as all people in history and in the present day who have trusted in Jesus Christ for Rescue and that is the community of Jesus's followers that make up his hands and feet in the world right um and then there are just local expressions of that thing if that's what the thing is then it's explicitly not a denomination it's not a movement it's not an event it's not a a set of beliefs necessarily it contains a set of beliefs or it has a set of beliefs that it defends right the community defends a set of beliefs but it's not uh it's not a building and it's not the thing that you go to to spend two hours on a on a Sunday morning

[26:42] staring at the back of another guy's head like it's something other than that and it's it's the people I think it's equal to the people who make it up um and that's a very different that's a very different definition from what a lot of people are operating with but what are some things that change if you kind of like if you take that view consistently and you hold something like that definition which was like if you take yours and mine and kind of mush them together I think you get a good biblical approach here but if that's the definition you're working with how do we sometimes like accidentally like like we sometimes accidentally still use this language for that refers to these other things like we go to church well you don't go to a family you don't go to people like you don't go to the body of Christ you are the body of Christ you're part of the family it's like so we we still sometimes use this language

[27:30] unhelpfully how do we start to like live this reality out it might still include these things in some shape or form right but it's like if we know those things aren't the church how can we healthily relate to the that thing while still saying like no this is the church and we don't wanna yeah we don't want to mix and match too much with this like we want to separate these things as not the church and still include them in a healthy way how do we start to think about doing that yeah just one little thing I we just updated our our bulletin uh my wife she's the graphic person and I instead of having our worship times that put put Gathering times or something along those lines because that's where we're here we're that's just a centralized time that we're meeting together it's a set aart time that makes it easy everyone we're coming

[28:18] to this building at this time H to meet and instead of it being this is the church time this is just one specific iteration of the Gathering of our local uh assembly and of just trying to disconnect the building and the service time as the church and no we are the church and that more than what happens in these walls is what are we doing outside of these walls together fellowshipping together of working together serving each other serving our community you know evangelizing whatever may fall under those different categories is is trying to detach that this is the only time I think about church is when I'm presently in the building with other people and then the rest of the time I just do whatever I want and I love how you talking about

[29:05] your book that disconnect or of the Sacred and secular or those things there isn't there is no distinction between those everything that we do is serving the lord you know this this is just one way we we pick a time to come together to to sing together you know studyed the word together uh it's as as a organized part of it you know people do that different ways but it's it's meant to be not something you come up to perform in it's something you come to be a part of that's right you participate in a family right you participate in your family ideally it's it's not something that's just audient it is participatory right and that's one of the issues that I have with the way that we like do church is that it is part it's it's audient not

[29:56] really participatory like you can might you might say okay your singing is participatory and you being asked to stand and sit and standing and sitting when you are asked to stand and sit and whatever you know yeah like when they say go and say hey to your neighbor or turn to your neighbor and say XYZ fine whatever but that's not really it's not organic that's sort of a contrived participation right so yeah when we look at the Bible right when we're looking at what what the church is if we if we can come to that definition we just looked at that's pretty biblical and I would say biblically informed that makes a lot more sense of what we see for example in the book of Acts and the situations into which Paul was writing his letters to try to help people navigate this or that thing or um first the the the the three letters from John right what sorts of instructions he's giving there and the

[30:44] warnings and the the the things to look out for make a lot more sense in that process in in that what like in that definition of what the church is then the 501c3 nonprofit captained by a CEO who is also every role under the sun um trying to run a company and be a good friend and be a Visionary leader and all this other stuff right um so we can talk about that I think that like church services that's probably not the hill I want to die on like whatever if I I I as long as you have as long as you have a really strong Community component as well some people really are blessed by the church service thing where they get together and there is a structured performance that happens as long as we're not calling that church I'm fine but if that thing exists and we're in each other's homes and we're making

[31:32] meals for each other and we're like actually burying one another's burdens and confessing our sins to one another and in an actual face-to-face relationship like this person needs help moving we all get in our cars drive to their house and help them pack stuff to move and we have Evangelistic conversations where we get together with friends and then an unsaved person all around a dinner table and we talk and we make we eat food and we play play board games I think that covers the New Testament Basics like as long as we're doing stuff like that I I'll let the service things slide that's not the biggest hill to die on I do think we do need to do meals for our Lord's Supper but that's a separate issue I just set that video to a friend last night and I really want to do that before our calendar year is over uh I've been I

[32:21] gotta get it figured out when and some Logistics might you're talking about the video about the Lord's Supper yes oh cool you you and like 10 other people enjoyed that video and really like it really impacted them that one didn't get as much reach because I don't think people understand why they should care as much but just read 1 Corinthians 11 and like remove all the like veiled religious speech that we've like stacked on top of it and just listen to Paul he thinks it's extremely important that there's a meal where everyone's sharing and no one is preferred over the other and everyone is is lifted up so that the body of Christ is healthy because if it's not healthy then that's when people start dying and the way that you know a church a a community of Jesus followers is healthy as if they're like together um sharing a meal where they're

[33:10] preferring one another regardless of their social standing and stuff like that so you know if if people watching this video are curious you could hit pause on this one and go watch the other one too because that's uh it's it's I think it needs more air time than it's gotten but that's neither here nor there yeah it was it was very helpful of only everever really read 1 Corinthians 11 from like 23 to 33 you know like the end part of it and I love how you go through the whole what's the real issue at play here that's going on um but just that just that Fellowship part of it and that sharing um and again like we're talking like getting away from the church of sub you come to to consume content rather than being a part of and trying to you know get away from a bunch of that and you know having small group time but

[33:58] we're we're I love that time typically most Sunday nights we have that I do questions from the sermon and it's great I'm like I need to do this before I get to these PES and I have all these ideas and feedback that I'm getting I should have ADD in the message to begin with you know and it's just neat because it brings everybody there um last night we had just a prayer time focusing on confessing our sins or our struggles and it was a really neat time and it was some people was kind of like wait we're doing this I was like I did warn you I preached first john9 this morning you know we're going to we're going to practice this going to try this and uh you find out who's really listening and no I talk a lot they're like we we heard bits of pieces I was like I know I need to slow down um but it was really neat and if people struggles we got a m an

[34:48] issue going on there some major spiritual attack with one of our families we're having over later today just to get with them and it's just that's what we're supposed to do not I'll see you next week at you know 10:30 it's right you know Finding times and and we've had so many people who are wanting more of that it's like okay we got to find out how do we you know structured enough where people know where to be at but it's people are starving for it yeah they they were findable they were findable Church communities in the in the first century right like you could uh Phoebe when she takes the the letter to the Romans and she goes to Rome she's carrying you know anti-roman cont band basically and she has to be able to find these little communities of Jesus followers that gathered in someone's home which was a locatable place and they would gather

[35:37] together she would read you know explain what's going on in Romans and then talk about you know and field questions and but they were findable you know but they would get together and they were in homes and it was almost always around a meal and it was super communal um which is what's so tragic now because now we can talk about the the the definition we inherit of what a pastor is and that's what's so tragic about it is is the the way that we Define Pastor has so much more to do with like Pagan Greek magistrates and like the way that that thinking mutated into the Catholic understanding of a priest and then like all we've done is walk back that same path like two steps and call it a pastor rather than going all the way back to the Bible and saying what was going on there and it's so tragic because I you know I have friends I'll

[36:26] even say former friends friends um people that I I loved that really don't like me at all anymore who were pastors uh in that in that vocational sense of like it being a job where you fill a role in a nonprofit as the CEO type um that still hold that role and I'm I'm essentially Persona nrata to them they they want to have kind of nothing to do with me but it's so tragic because what that what that set of assumptions that we have creates is a separate person it's a it's a person who's separate and it's it's apart from the people they don't have that Community really people are always kind of like on eggshells around them or they're just brain vomiting and dumping out all of their issues to to ask this

[37:16] person to solve them and then they're passively sitting back expecting to be served when none of that is the picture in the New Testament at all like when I think of a pastor the word is literally just Shepherd right yeah and a Shepherd isn't a hierarchically different higher level from the Sheep they're in living among the Sheep they're guiding still they're helping they're they're looking out for issues they're taking care of people but the in the in the church the person who who you only see the word Shepherd appear once as a noun that doesn't refer to an actual Shepherd taking care of actual sheep or to Jesus himself and it's plural it's in Ephesians 4 it's in a list of other gifts God gives to the church which again we've already talked about is all of God's people not to this institution or this nonprofit building or whatever

[38:04] right it's like gifts God gives to all of his people to be equipping them to do the work of the ministry right not to do the work of the ministry themselves it's pastors and teachers right and they're kind of mashed together in the Greek evangelists prophets missionaries or evangelists prophets and and um Apostles right which we could unpack all those terms too whatever I have different different understanding from a lot of folks on those too but the idea is that these are all given to the church to the church to equip the saintss to do the work of the ministry not to just do the work of the ministry themselves so like how do we misde Pastor in ways that are unhealthy both for the person who takes up the role of Pastor and then also for the people who are under them in the situation where you've got a 501 seek through nonprofit and this guy's the CEO and everything else yeah it's It's

[38:51] tricky because it so much of my initial understanding is like here's this the special special elevated clergy position above the lady um you can't have friends with other people because then you're going to have issues or they're going to stab you in the back you got to have like you put up these walls um there's even so much of the well we're paid to do this so that's our stuff we need to do and you don't have time for that and the different views people have you know whether payment or not I'm part-time B locational so I have best of both I guess which is neat hey the worker is worthy of his hire the one who makes his living by the gospel or the one who preaches the gospel ought to be able to make his living by the gospel I'm with all of that that's not a problem yeah but and it's I've I've been all three levels of that in different

[39:40] forms um and I like this current the best because it gets me out there especially as a introvert natured person um work a job in my community people see me oh you're the new pastor you know I don't get that as much since it's been a few years at least but there's but it's like this as you kind of alluded to like this own concoction of this idea of this separate person in a lot of ways that was a separate person I had the pastor Persona and the real me and my biggest struggle is I wasn't allowed to be the real because there's this certain thing and what was really scary looking back is I was living two lives it was out of my house I was this pastor I was trying to be I was trying to be this Persona

[40:29] not very well but I was trying and then at home I was like I just want to be me I don't want to wear this hat you know um and it was just me and my wife mainly it's was like we just kind of hold up we didn't want to talk to anyone we didn't know who our neighbors were most of the places we live just because of we were just like I checked that at the door because it's like I don't want to wear this all the time and that was as the assistant much less you know that you know that's a whole another thing people have you know the different levels of that um but it was it was really difficult to work through and separate that at first because for so many Pastor that is their identity right I've been around a few where they get upset when people don't call them Pastor don't call them doctor or whatever it's like no that's if it's if it's easy for men to get wrapped up their identity in their work in general

[41:17] how much more easy when you think you're morally obligated to wrap up your identity in your work by God himself and you think that your work is God's gift to the world and that what you have as a job is not just a job but like it's also a calling but the calling is the job and like you have the job you go out and you do the thing you perform the role for a paycheck and then that's that's that's where the sacred secular mess starts to really sink its teeth into pastors all the time and then you you you leave the house and then you're Pastor so and so and you go and do your pastor thing and you you come back and then you check that at the door and then it's like it's almost like there's a sense in which you you set aside the like pretending to be the mature Pious Christian person to just get some rest from that when it's like the whole thing is supposed to be

[42:05] integrated and it's supposed to be a very different shape yeah and it's often especially for me is straight out of Bible C trying to figure it out L faking it till I could make it in a lot of ways and a lot of those well go figure this out I was like I don't know how to figure this out I barely know how to you know do anything I barely just got married like I don't know how to do you know you think so maybe that's some of our current uh Society issues you know maturity of age wise I know how to work hard I KN how to do stuff but I was you know my brain was still not finished rewiring you know that they said finish till you're in your mid to late 20s that's right finally feels like isn't doing that yet yeah it's not ready yeah and so there was a lot of instability on that and this unobtainable job description I was trying to live up to that seemed to

[42:54] always be kind of uh moving and never able to fully live up to it um and it was tricky as some days to navigate and it was often very frustrating because I wanted to do well I always gave everything I had to pleasing my pastor that was strange you serve them and they take care of you um and they they were very good to us in a lot of ways but it was always this kind of frustration and tension that was there because it was you need to be what I want you to be rather than be who God wants you to be and we'll figure out what that how that looks in between and so it was I could never fully be myself and the biggest help to that there was a family in the church um who came on that God brought and they're basically like no you're

[43:42] going to be our family and they they live right down the road from the church and they had us over all the time they became our family and they were it was a place where we can actually be ourselves and that was a very scary thing to do and but they forced us to do it for our own sake and we thank God for those people that's awesome and that was a very helpful thing to see of Like These people aren't perfect they got a lot of stuff going on um but they opened their home up to us we were over there all the time um they're teen are in our youth group and but they're like second parents to us um and it was just very really timely that God used people like that in our lives um to say no you're going to be our family you're not going to be the pastor you're going to be our

[44:29] friend you're going to be our you know son in that role and that was just huge and now as being a lead Pastor whatever you want call it of trying to on the other end of break down those walls and I think more Our Generation that's become less of a thing and you know different dear older folk at different times you know they're like oh you're you're Pastor so and like you if you want to call me that that's fine but I'm Josh like that's my name my identity is not being a pastor I love getting to be one that's a privilege it's it's something you know I don't take lightly U but it's I'm just as much a part of this church as anyone um right I may have a louder voice because I'm loud than people and there's you know there's different leadership and certain

[45:18] decisions you know that may get delegated at different times you know but it's everyone needs to have a say in these things not right you know you're the professional you go do it it's there's I can't do that you can't do I can't that's right the pastor doesn't have all the spiritual gifts and he doesn't have everything that the church needs he has everything that he needs to give to the church is given to him by the spirit but the spirit has things that he's given to other folks inside of the body of Christ that the rest of the body of Christ needs that isn't just reducible to you know greet Folks at the door stack up the chairs and hand out the bulletins like everyone has things that they need to to contribute to the body of Christ when it comes to the pastor discussion I always I I I can never get away from first Peter 52 where all three there's kind of like three

[46:05] terms that are traditionally lumped together into the same kind of role is sort of a thing in the Church of what we just kind of shorthand we want to refer to this thing in the shorthand as pastor but then when we do so we lump a bunch of other stuff in that we were just talking about like it's the CEO it's it's all this other stuff that's not healthy and then you get the sacred secular divide thinking because this is a sacred job which means there are secular jobs which also means that there's secular time when you're not on the sacred job and whatever but there's three there's three things where you know you get Shepherd you get overseer right and then you get Elder and so those are usually from people who do the study and really do the work and look in the Greek those are those are the three things you get you get poen Shepherd right overseers episcopos or episcopos depending on what Greek translation

[46:52] schematic you use and then you get um you get um the which is just presbuteros right and there's there's a couple of verses where all three of them show up at the same time to essentially describe the same people and one of them is First Peter 52 which I'll just read the uh I'll read the the new King James why not you know I'm I I use a lot of different translations but says Shepherd the flock okay that's a verb there okay Shepherd the flock of God which is among you among you is interesting there not under you but among you serving as overseers not by compulsion but willingly not for dishonest gain but eagerly right and it's in the it's in the previous verse 1 Peter 51 that I think he says I'm appealing to you Elders as a fellow Elder right that you Shepherd them and

[47:42] serve as an overseer that you watch over them willingly now watch over also isn't a hierarchical term episcopos is someone who looks out for others right but what we've done is we've just taken all these ideas we've mashed them into a role we've added on because we think the church is a building or we think that the church because we think that the church is a building this person is responsible in some ways for the upkeep of the building if we think that the church is a movement we think that they're responsible for leading as a Visionary the movement if we think that the church is a denomination that has a certain set of doctrinal stances this person has to hold and defend all those same doctrinal stances or they're not a good shepherd they're like a false Shepherd right um if the if the church is a they're the CEO if the church is a community they're like the leader of the

[48:31] community somehow where they have to be like the big brother who like helps people and does all this stuff and then if you do all this stuff and the people are passive then this is the only one that's spiritually active and they're responsible for feeding everyone and caring for everyone which is just like all those bad assumptions get us into this place where I have so much compassion for pastors specifically people who think that this is the role that they have to fill and they've got 30 hats now I just have so much compassion because they think that what God is expecting them to do is the work of 30 or 40 people and I think it's a I think it's a lie straight from the mouth of the devil designed to damage and harm and maybe even take out some of the people that do stand to serve and contribute to the the body of Christ the

[49:18] most because of their love for the Lord and they just get chewed up and spit out by something that's unbiblical that's that's my stance I've definitely had friends that have live through that gut-wrenching to see and a lot of it comes back to those unhealthy expectations whether put on yourself or by you know different contexts and it's a there's so much freedom in it not being built on you I grew up in a church that at his Peak was over a thousand or about a thousand attendants and our pastor got sick and suddenly died and in a couple years the churches half that because in a lot of ways it was built on his gifting and his style is necessarily a bad thing but that was the church's it all flowed out from that and so he's not there very Suddenly It's it's a

[50:06] different place um and I it's one advantage of being a younger Pastor is it I can play on I'm only 32 years old I'm one of the youngest men in our church um I don't have you know a quarter of the wisdom on so many different levels of so many in here and that has helped just kind of not trying to be a false have false humility but just like look I've never raised children I was child as five you get great grandparents in here who your your children and grandchildren all love the Lord like go ask them for parenting advice not for me you know I can tell you up to age five maybe and you can judge for yourself if I'm doing good or not and it's just neat because it brings everybody in like everybody and

[50:53] especially the older folk because sometimes it's easy to kind of like oh we gotta do the new thing and do all these different things rather than you oh you've done your thing now it's our time to step up uh it's no you have the most wisdom in our church you don't have the energy that's right we can take we can have the energy somewhat some days anyway um and it's it has every generation and that's one thing as so fun to see and it's kind of been a growing pain of late in our church we have so many kids and times it's they're noisy they're rambunctious you know mind leading that sometimes and you know sometimes that can you know they're you know chitchatting during the service or you know when we're having a small group time you know they're running into the walls of the gym you know that we have last night we were doing that the boys

[51:41] are you know in there killing each other while we're trying to pray you know yeah another another week and sometimes that's you know not always ideal but it's like what you want to do get rid of all the children they're boy yeah they're boys they're it's boyish Behavior it's not wrong and of itself it's just like yeah how do we have healthy relationship folks they love it and they're welcoming it you know we have in our church our kids they're like their adoptive grandparents and they see them more than their grandparents because of distance and they they fill that role and it's it's just such a neat thing to be a part of that and to see that as imperfectly as it is in any place when you have a group of Sinners you know that are trying to work together and but it's it it keep keeps things in mind you know when you see

[52:28] people who are coming to know Christ who are being discipled and baptized and growing you know the kids that are growing up and and choosing for themselves you know then people see oh this is worth it you know yes we're not perfect but something's happen Beau this is beautiful I I I love kind of where this is this leading kind of the next phase of this conversation because so you're in a you're in an Institutional church right you're pastoring it it's it is a nonprofit it is all these things or whatever but you have the right healthy categories for what these things actually are in their biblical definition so you can kind of contain some of the excesses and some of the issues that arise if you're not clear and you're thinking about what the church is what a pastor's role is all of those different things and you're like

[53:17] sure maybe your statement of faith or like your denominational head or whatever I don't even know if you have one of those but like those you probably have a statement of faith but probably not a denominational whatever like all those things would maybe say hey there's the pastor is the leader or whatever and it's like the de facto definition they have is this but you're almost even if you're like the senior pastor what you're doing is you're creating a plurality of Elders you're bringing in Elders folks who are by the the the simplest definition of that word they've just got more years walking with the Lord and more experience and more wisdom and more time on task serving him and the spirit has given them stuff over the years that they've got a treasure Trove of things they can share from their experience trying to live like Jesus's King and sharing that with other people to help them better do that right which

[54:05] is what I think the biblical definition of an elder is and so your your structure over here if you weren't so if again character counts for a lot if your character weren't in the way that it is and hasn't hadn't been formed the way that it had been formed you could just kind of slot into the ruts and the the the easy sort of obvious path of least resistance things over here and you wouldn't get all that rich depth of life and community that you would that you have in your context you're kind of straddling this line in a way that I think is really beautiful and that I want to see more people do right because again my goal I would love to see everyone just go back to house churches and have you know plurality Elders are just people who've been around in Christ for longer and they're just kind of giving life advice and helping out people who are behind them it's men and women and whatever that's my 100% Vision but like where we are every step we take

[54:56] in the direction of that is beautiful to me and it's something I applaud and I'm so thankful for so you're in this interesting spot where you've got you've got the institutional church you've got the you're literally in the role of Pastor right you've got all this stuff going on but you found ways to healthily express the biblical reality in terms of community in terms of everyone contributes everyone is a part of this thing you're all the body um I don't have this as a job that Separates Me From You but I need to be in relationship with all of you and you need to be in relationship with me and with each other we're all under Jesus like all of those very healthy expressions and since I published my video on like what the church is and what the Lord's Supper is and all those different things which are pretty controversial and expressing that 100% like this is my ideal reality I've since

[55:46] left an Institutional church that kind of jettisoned me in a really unhealthy way and I've stepped into an a different institutional Church in our area that is you know plurality of Elders where the elders disagree on this or that thing it's Community Focus literally from the pulpit last two two Sundays ago the pastor who was who was preaching and teaching from that from the pulit that day said remember that this isn't the church but you are all the church leave and be the church to one another and to the world around you this week and I was just like I shed a tear because I'm like yes thank God that's that's happening what I want to try to see if we can talk about now is how we because now I'm we in this situation how we in the institutional Church Expressions can prioritize what scripture

[56:35] prioritizes for the life and practice of God's people even if it's not ideal how what are some ways in which you've seen this is what the Bible prioritizes and even if this whole structure and system doesn't necessarily fit what I think what are ways that you can prioritize what the Bible prioritizes in any institutional Church setting and try to guide it toward a more healthy version of yeah to me the big thing that's been the last few years of working through and you talk a lot about this in your book of what it means to be a disciple and to make a disciple and it was a few years ago we just on a whim happened to go to this little conference thing at a nearby camp we didn't even know what it was my buddy had worked at the camp he let's go and they started talking about what is a disciple what is a methas you know the great word he goes through the

[57:23] history of you know the the Greek philosophers how they had their disciples and the tal you know all the the rabbis and all those different things and the whole idea the controversy you know with Jesus of calling Ordinary People to be his disciples was very countercultural and but they understood what he was calling them to do was you're GNA carry my name on when I'm gone and it's going to be passed down person to person uh in this way and that may look differently in different you know contexts uh but the question that they they brought up at this little workshop seminar type thing was you know if it's if it's biblical it should be doable in any context any place at any time and I forget the exact wording but something

[58:11] along those lines and it was you know and so that really began to help me think through what do we is what I'm doing in my church setting is this something that could be copy pasted into any place in history any place in the world and it still be the same you know uh now that gets you in trouble in a lot of places you know and it's uh you know some places are very you know Western focused you know there's a lot of different things with that um but is that add its for is it something that you could do in any size Church whether you have 10 or 10,000 whatever can you what does that mean and that gets means getting as many people that will do it of disci being discipled and discipling someone else and that idea of a lifelong commitment um and they kind of gave

[59:01] their modotto of their Journey at this one Past in their church and it was just like wow I've never heard it put that way where before as discipleship is are you saved yeah you've been baptized yeah have you gone through this 14we material yeah okay you're disciples go serve go find you know that was disciple making and it was just like that's it or this is you're a lifelong learner you need someone who's pouring into you and then you need to be ready to important to someone else and it was that challenge of and not just individually but as a community right where the whole Community like if if the way that I use I like to frame this is if zero is unsaved and 100 is the very character of Jesus formed in a person operating fully right like none of us is a 100 okay but

[59:51] we're all on the journey I think that God what God has actively engaged in doing is forming us more and more into the image and likeness of Christ right making us more in our character in our nature in our wants and Desires in our habits in our choices in our what we do with our time what we prioritize and don't prioritize that he's he's actively engaged in the project of making us more all more to borrow biblical language conformed to that image right yeah and so sure it's helpful for me to think of like maybe I'm a 20 or a 30 right and I'm looking for people who are 40s and to kind of like relate to and learn from and follow behind and I think that those 40 and 50 people biblically speaking are Elders right that's someone who's been further along in the journey than you and they're not perfect because no one's

[1:00:38] perfect how could you expect someone to be perfect if they're still dealing with the flesh if they're not Jesus himself you know um and even he had emotional struggles okay but that's a whole other discussion like you're you're looking for the 40s and 50s those are your elders but the the elders themselves are always looking to Jesus they're looking to the authors of scripture and what they put forth right Paul's like a 90 or whatever Paul and Peter and John we're we're learning from them and they're trying to give advice in their letters for how to as a community live in such a way that you're moving further and further towards the goal you're pressing towards the Mark you are living out the implications of what it means to have Jesus as king really you know but it's the whole Community it's not like I'm just going to find one person to pull along behind me it's like maybe an entire family I'm a I'm a a 30 but

[1:01:26] there's a whole family that's like a 25 a 20 a 19 and a 10 and a five and I want to relate to that whole let's have that whole family over and let's let's all see if we can collectively move toward the 100 just a little bit closer together you know yeah um so beautiful yeah and it's neat because like you're saying it brings anybody can do it it it pulls in those who have been in theory growing and maturing serving God the longest you have the most because here's all these new Christians that we have or these young kids that they need people to pour into you know um and looking for those ways of having those interactions organically you know we try to structure it some I hate to I don't want to over structure things but give people Pathways hey here's a person who needs

[1:02:14] someone important to them are you willing to do that you know and yeah sometimes it's two people who are sameish level but it's like hey work together pray together study you know grow together you know and then one of you get to lead someone to Christ and boom you're ready to to take off with I've been getting with a guy who's been coming I I I believe he is saved and it's neat to see God working in his life um his wife was a Christian came with her kids you know um by herself for a year you know God kind of woke him up a little bit and he's just he's just soaking it all up he's like oh yeah listen to all these YouTuber apologists and all this stuff talking about the Bible and he's like this is great you know and it's just like it's just so neat to see and everybody is having a part of that in our church you know of they're there helping

[1:03:04] them you know they got four little kids you know they're trying to you know paral you know and everyone's there supporting and helping each other and and pulling together you know and it's it's a work in progress most of all me and but it's I love your humility but what you just said okay so I'm going back to I I I wanted to write down the exact quote I don't know if I got it right but this is the paraphrase of the the thing that you heard from that Workshop of like if it's biblical it should be doable in any place at any time roughly right like is that how was there something else that I missed there I felt like I missed something there I think in any size too ah okay cool in any size I have to I have it written somewhere up here's what's so wonderful about that it's the the the the required infrastructure to operate a church is actually very small like to operate a

[1:03:53] local expression of a church is very very very small and I think that that's strategic on God's part I've seen I I always think of um I find this kind of ironic actually but I think a lot about Hudson Taylor uh and his missionary work right and how you know at the the church that I was a part of most recently before we left and and we were kind of jettisoned in that unhealthy way I was talking about they had like a Friday night Institute Bible thing where people would go and would study this or that Doctrine and you know because discipleship was very much viewed as having correct views um and kind of getting all the right answers on the Christian Scantron multiple choice test so that God grades you well when you die and go to heaven uh whether they would agree with that or not that's kind of the de facto way that it was cashed out um but like the the the ironic thing for

[1:04:44] me is like okay we'd study Hudson Taylor and Hudson Taylor's whole thing when he first went over to China to begin his missionary work there was he was bringing essentially like a Western Christian expression of it with all this extra baggage and he's still wearing his suits and he's got his hair cut the right way you know the way that a good Christian does if you're you know a Southern Baptist or whatever and he's he's taking that whole thing he's picking that whole structure up and he's taking it over to China and he's trying to make all of it stick and making all of that land in that context and it wasn't working at all and he to his great credit decided Well you know what what if I just cut out everything that's not non-negotiable and he starts dressing dressing like a Chinese man traditional like Chinese GARP there are

[1:05:33] photos of him that are so they bring me to tears because it's so beautiful to see a person who grows out his hair and then shaves himself bald all except for a top knot braid in like super traditional Chinese style and he's wearing really ornate Chinese robes and he's got a certain cut of mustache and beard and he's just thrown away everything that isn't necessary for the functioning of the gospel and the and the gospel to take root and for people to abandon their allegiance to the kingdom of darkness and and give their allegiance to King Jesus instead right and yeah that's so beautiful because we we talk about that in the context of missionary work what's ironic is that it came back to a group of mostly Spanish-speaking people in the United St the United States dressed up in suit and tie you know as though

[1:06:22] they're uh you know American southern Baptists was just like really funny to me personally is because like you don't we're not recognizing that we're like we're admiring Hudson Taylor for doing something we're not willing to do um or that we're like we we raise the standard to this weird like ptic rule keeping about like about like pants wearing and about you you know if you want to serve in a Ministry you got to wear a tie or if you want to do this or that thing you got to have you know you can never drink alcohol because the statement of faith that we have says alcohol consumption is a sin even though the Bible doesn't and it's just like if if we have rules that would keep Jesus from being a deacon in our church we should really reconsider those those rules you know we should really think twice about having that in place but what's what I'm say what I'm trying to say I'm sorry because we were both we both Rabbit Trail we both kind of go off on stuff but like what I'm

[1:07:11] saying is I think it's strategic on God's part and it's beautiful really to see it when it works because all you need to be a a a very fruitful disciplemaker is to yourself be following closer to your Lord every day right to know what that looks like in every circumstance in every situation in your life in your work in your rest in your relationships is kind of how I frame it up in my book right but then to to have you have EV in your normal life in your everyday life you have so many ways that you could put that to work you you have a home ostensibly with a kitchen table and food in the refrigerator you have meal times that are opportunities for you to invite people out of their context and into your home home and into your life in this intimate space where you're serving

[1:07:59] them and you're loving them and there's just so many wonderful how many wonderful conversations do you have around a dinner table even with just your own family but of course with other folks too people who are already in the Kingdom that you're inviting into your home and intimately you know enjoying a meal which you were going to be doing already you know and you can you can call them forward to love Jesus more and encourage them and bear their burdens and pray for them and and talk about what's really going on in their life and those are people that are in the Kingdom people who are outside of the Kingdom who have almost no other occasion to spend time with you if you meet them and then invite them to your home for dinner like do that people will show up into your home and then if you're living like Jesus's King they'll see that there's a difference in your life the way that you treat your wife the way that you treat your kids um like we had some we had some people over a long time ago who

[1:08:48] came from a very like meso Mexican culture and there were these teenage girls that were invited into our home that my wife was just doing an amazing job ministering to and loving and they saw okay my wife is sitting on the couch and I'm sitting on the floor and I'm willingly sitting on the floor I'm letting her have the the place where she's got more comfort and I'm letting other people have the comfort and I'm the one who goes last you know and they're like really kind of weirded out by like he's he's doing that's weird and then my wife asks me if I would get up and get her a drink and I'm like yeah sure what do you want and I immediately get off of the ground and walk into the kitchen to go get her just like a like a sparkling water or something and they're blown away by this because they're like that's so weird and so countercultural but it was an it was an opportunity we

[1:09:35] had because we invited them into our home to see a place where we are both mutually submitting to one another and treating the other person as though they're more important than ourselves right and considering one another and they got to see the one anothers fleshed out in a way that they're like that's really beautiful and I don't know that they would have had the opportunity to see that if all we're doing is inviting them to an EV on a Sunday yeah it's it's so huge and on the other side that's been equally helpful for me and I think for others to see is you're allowing people to see you're Brokenness too right yeah we're not perfect we G have it all figured out I was so proud of my wife this last Sunday she promptu invited um friends to to stick for lunch uh after church and I walk in I'm like oh we have three little kids our house

[1:10:22] was kind of like stuff everywhere five yeah yeah and it didn't bother her and I was like I'm so proud like she knew it was probably a hot mess and she was okay with that and I'm you know they're friends and stuff like that but it was just funny you know my wife she's so great with that and I prefer to her to schedule and do whatever she wants with that I get in trouble fight hey you can come over now and she's like H I wasn't ready for that because she was a PK her dad would do that to her and her mom growing up oh yeah come on over for dinner mom run the store to get stuff on the way home you know but yeah it's just so huge and that's some of the the people that are most impactful to us it was seeing them live their lives in front of us and opening that up where for so much of it it's like that the public and private life were separate you know and one yeah I could get those

[1:11:12] all all kind of trails I could go down I won't for time but anyway yeah well there there's just a in everything that yeah right yeah it's it's it's it's just wonderful because it's like okay you could be a you could be a college student with very little time you know and you it doesn't even have to be your table man like you could like let's go get coffee let's go get a let's let's go have lunch somewhere that is a thing that is so strategically use like you even read the New Testament Jesus uses that strategically all the time to have meals with people God's Own self-revelation in scripture is tied to good meals all all the time and it's like you sure there's if you're in the stage of life where you don't have

[1:11:59] little kids and you can realistically keep the house pretty clean and you can have a little bit more of an elaborate meal and bless some people with that that's great feel free to do that right but if you're if you're a college student and all you can do is invite someone to go out and get coffee maybe you were already going to be doing that but now you're using that time in a Redemptive sort of relational way like there's so much or if you're like young marrieds and you got little kids there's something still so Winsome and so beautiful about I've got a home you might see some laundry piled up in the corner you know we've got a sink full of dishes I might be doing the dishes once you get to our house while we're talking if that's not weird and you'll just drink our tap water because we didn't go to the store this week and we'll order in a pizza but we want to spend time with you like there's still so much like

[1:12:48] Winsome reality about that where it's just like we're real we're not trying to be not real we're not a Persona um but again this goes back to like the what the pastor needs to be like if everyone needs to think that the pastor and his family are perfect in order to like respect and want to follow them then that will never happen realistically or if it does everyone's going to be so beaten down and so tired and so exhausted from pretending and from making everything look perfect that the second those people leave then it's like arguments start and people are just broken and there's no you've hidden all the Brokenness you've managed to sweep it under the rug long enough for people to come in and think everything's perfect for a while and then they leave and then all the problems come out and I have the advantage I can't hide it because I got little kids literally this last Sunday I was up there in the middle of give announcements or doing something and my daughter just runs right up to me

[1:13:36] the pulpit here you go daddy hands me her you know Sunday school paper and it runs back and I was like you know it was just great you know um and it's it's just so much fun just being a part of people's lives going back to the making disciples the that Matthew 28:19 that in English it's go but it's gives the idea of as you're going make disciples as you're going your rhyth life as you're eating meals you can use that to make disciples if you're getting coffee whatever you know there's yes and that's I think our culture has has become so segmented some of it you know you've got school work Towers you've got you know whatever all these different things but it's even in that there's times and you know as a parent trying to use that as

[1:14:24] my kids are get getting older we had our men and boys camp out um this last Friday and Saturday you know just me and my son driving there back you know trying to engage in conversation with him and you know try to see what he's thinking and feeling you know of using those windows that we have um rather than everybody does their own thing everybody's on this device or that device you know our our double-edged sword you know technology in that sense um and it's just trying to ask God for wisdom and awareness of all these opportunities that around will just stop and you know that was something God has took us from you know full speed to to very slow speed you know over a quick period of time and it was just like oh we can

[1:15:13] actually breathe and function normally and we're growing because we're actually getting with people and yeah so interesting yeah that's so interesting lifegiving is a term that we've come to use a lot like we've had a lot of dinners over the course of the past month since we've transitioned into this other Church community that have been very lifegiving but I wanted to focus on there's something you mentioned earlier it's like our our culture is so like sliced up right um a lot of people a lot of Christians kind of frame this in terms of like well there's our culture and we want to like inhabit our culture and then there's like the Jewish culture and they were different almost where it's like but almost to say as though like this was what they did and that's fine but this is what we do right so you get even like Evangelistic approaches from people like Moody I'm thankful for every person who ever believed the

[1:16:01] gospel thanks to the work of Moody and his followers but he had some pretty weird ideas about like what the gospel was and about the church just being a voluntary Association of the saved and all those things but I'm like it's not the same to just say it's there's not a moral equivalence here we can't just say like you can just do this part however you want to do these things because it's not it's not our culture and an and an ancient culture it's the culture of the world in which we inhabit and then the culture of the Kingdom right and the culture that we inhabit is very compartmentalized and individualistic right it's very much me my identity my life my choices and then all of those categories are chopped up into all these different things right where I have what I do for work and what I do for my family and then I've got me time and then I've got my you know weekend and

[1:16:51] even my calendar I've got 925 and then I've got my Saturday and Sunday and Sunday is for this and that and it's just very delineated whereas the the Jewish culture that I would say produced the culture of the kingdom of God right that that God's own kingdom is is uh in some ways foreshadowed in the way that Jewish people did things right or it was uh the way that God's kingdom operates the way that his his Dominion is supposed to look was was in some ways prefigured in the Jewish community and then like really in the gospel and the way that they flesh things out in the New Testament like brought to bear and and explained in a much more clear way it is not individualistic and it is not compartmentalized it is everything is included there's no like sacred secular

[1:17:40] divide like we were talking about earlier it's all important it's all imbued with sacred and secular implications at the same time like it's it's in the world but it's also under God's kingdom and it's all this stuff and it's very collectivistic it's very familiar it's very like interrelated so like having a work meal with a friend who is needing to be discipled is like you're you're you're on your break at work and you're relating to a person at work who's a friend there's a friend relationship there and they need discipling and encouragement like that's a much more integrated look but we just don't think in those terms and we miss so many cool opportunities I think of the I think of the shama in Deuteronomy 6 where um you know God is going out of

[1:18:27] his way but Moses is saying you know um you know here Israel the Lord our God is Lord alone and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength right it's the first part of the greatest Commandment that Jesus repeats later on in the New Testament as like this is if you want to know what's going on in the law and the prophets what's most important it's this we start with this and the other half is love your neighbor as yourself and then the next part of that passage he says and these words which I command you today shall be in your heart you shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house when you walk by the way when you lie down and when you rise up you'll bind them as a sign on your hand meaning like everything that you do is involved in this right is involved in living this out and there'll be frontlets between your eyes like what you think about is

[1:19:15] what what you do and what you think about needs to be completely influenced by this way of thinking loving God with all your heart soul mind and strength as a community and you do it in every context it doesn't matter it's all there so it's way more integrated and I don't think we do that either this kind of went in an interesting Direction I didn't anticipate this but this is good yeah I list had kind of going off that I'm not a chosen Fanboy whatever I know different people have different takes on that but one thing that is the it makes it so relatable of oh this is what it probably would have looked like you know there wasn't segmented time oh be the disciples now you know do it was everything was integrated and that that was really kind of neat to see and that's one thing previously that kind of separate Pastor Persona it was oh anytime you're getting with someone it's

[1:20:03] like this work brain it's work hours you know you're like quantifying everything in that view rather than this is something we all do get with each other like this is not a separate thing this is just a normal Christian thing to get with each other to help each other it's not it's not a special thing because I'm a pastor or whatever you know it's something we do We Make Disciples we teach our children we work together on all these different things and uh pardon my children in the background apparently not an issue again we're uh M mine are just on the other side of that door too I just have a really good noise cancellation on the mic but um so we're coming up on you know an hour and some change on this I've appreciated every second of this it's been super uh lifegiving again to borrow that same term yeah but let's kind of look for if we want to if we be

[1:20:54] being people who are willingly inhabiting a structure and a system that we know is in some ways extra biblical okay it might have some practical realities and practical outworkings that strategically are good and right people know to look for a church a neighborhood church or like a building you can have a sign that lets you be discoverable and then people can come in and people invite folks to church and there's this whole thing where strategically we might still be using those things to try to get people into a kingdom relationship set where they're growing and being discipled and discipling others and and and the real deal right but we've talked a little bit about how to strategically use those things and talk about those things and teach from those things in a

[1:21:43] way that is leading to the real deal how do we mitigate some of the excesses and issues that can arise with willingly using an extra biblical system without burning it down and going for my my pipe dream of everybody's in house churches again I think a lot of it has to leaders pastors have to have that their understanding changed away some of that's um I think we saw a lot of people who as we were growing up it was like this educational boom you know here's these big Bible colleges you send all your kids to and they may never come back but they that's who trains people for Ministry rather than we train here this is yeah our context this is our our church not that there's great you know working online degree right now which I

[1:22:34] which I enjoy and I love Trinity Seminary let's go and I love it and that's and I I love that it's it's online I do it at my own pace whatever and all that um but it's I think it's so much of when you send it you extradite all those things out whether you know different even for children different views of public hom school private school all those things you know you have all that can factor into that but who who is the responsibility on to train my children ultimately it's on me even if it's someone else who is maybe doing it it's on me as a parent to know what's going on same is true with the church and even as a pastor it's ultimately in that sense of I need to know what's going on and be the right example of these things uh again my age

[1:23:24] helps with that and I pray that I Aid gracefully in that sense um as far as you know it's e my most quoted verse the BRS were more noble than those thica because they search the scriptures whether those things were so don't take my word for it take God's word for it you know if we have a disagreement we can work through that together um but just because I have the title doesn't mean I'm more correct than anyone else um however someone has a doctorate by their name doesn't mean they're have it all figured out um you know I'm kind of I'm a Maverick on a lot of different things which we've connected with on a lot of that um oh yeah and so I think that's a huge part of it at least for me personally that that I can control is of making sure that it is not built on pain which yeah wow it's such an easy

[1:24:13] temptation as a pastor that I've seen so much in in a lot of ways was trained to do even though the they're like oh don't do that and then but that's what they model and that's what they don't like if you don't follow exactly how they do it um which is kind of funny um and I do think a lot of people our age and some of the older guys have gone before have recognized that too which I've benefited personally from who have seen that no it's got to be a we working through these things um and not we as an our specific church that has everything figured out and we the standard it's we're one piece of a big family you know think of the church is a one big family you know you have your individual family units in different places that are going to look and feel a little differently

[1:25:01] and act differently just depending where they're at um but also of working with other people and that are in different context you know and not being afraid of that that connectedness and that was again so much to my background is that isolationist you know where we the gold standard you know of all those things and now it's there's so many things I'm like I'm maybe I'm right or not on this you know I'm not going to die on all these different things there's certain things I know you know these are not negotiable in Bedrock truths of who Jesus is you know those type of things everything else I'm very open-handed and I'm okay with that um yeah and with the on the church side of it is no one no one here has it figured out totally we're working on this together and

[1:25:48] trying to keep everyone engaged give everyone a voice in that and some it's hard cuz it's a lot of times and my personality is more bent this way of just tell me what to do and as I was maturing and into my later 20s like my personality shifted one thing over you know those 16 personality things I went from the enlisted Soldier to like the the logic fact brain so now I'm kind of insufferable like black or white brain it's my wife y she's like empathetic you know and I'm like you know facts don't care about feelings you know that's where I'm at now um but it's but allowing people to to speak into your life and of trying to not not not make it feel overly structured as organic as possible um not where there's chaos you

[1:26:37] know you know things decently in order know yeah Paul Paul wants that in First Corinthians to he's like look don't just get together and go crazy he's like but everybody contributes something in turn in order so that everyone's built up yeah yeah and there's so many things I want to Inc do a better job of incorporating you know uh with that and we're slowly working toward that and that was a big thing a few years ago right before we came our church have started doing kind of that small group um things which instead of just another service to consume and that was took a little bit for a few people but now that's one of my favorite times because I just get to come in and say what do you guys got what do you think about this and I just you know sit and moderate a little bit but I just you know get the glean from everyone else um it's so much fun seeing that you know ladies that get together

[1:27:27] and different men's stuff going on and I want my kids to see that and to be a part of that where you get to have a voice too you know um when you're ready for it you know it's five now you doesn't have much to contribute of a lot of depth I want to make a pathway it's not disjointed and and that's a challenging thing to work through especially coming out of very structure heavily structured um yeah you know loose denominational type stuff which aren't all bad you know can't have you know and they meant a lot of it had some good of trying to separate from certain things which I I get you know I don't we do have a statement of beliefs you know just like oh yeah anyone can come and be a part it's like there there is some

[1:28:16] things you need to agree with if you're literally if it's if it's accurate to describe you the way John describes the Antichrist people in the first first three in his letters you're probably not going to be like welcome here with that we'll treat you like an Evangelistic Prospect and an enemy that we love but you're not gonna come in here and teach that or spread that it's like you're kind of not that's a non-negotiable thing and that's what that's what a episcopos is supposed to be doing is like looking for those threats to the life of the church and saying like look we have to extend a hand and say no that's not like we will talk to you about that I'll meet with you um but please don't be bringing that in here because you know but but yeah what I'm hearing um and maybe this is a this is too neat and tidy a summary but we'll kind of I'll I'll try it and we'll see

[1:29:04] if it lands and if not we can Nuance it afterwards it's almost like what what we're what we're tempted by or what we want to do is so much of like I think of it as like the ring of power from Lord of the Rings right where it's like we're using the the the toolss of the enemy or the way of thinking of the enemy or the world system and the way that things are done and we think that because we can just we're almost like Boromir we want to use those things because we can see that they're powerful for some end but there's a corruption that is is there as well where it's like what we what we're so tempted by is to turn inward okay and be internally prideful if I'm a pastor or I'm a leader that ring of power is really tempting to me because I've got a bunch of people under my authority that I'm giving advice to and telling to do

[1:29:53] this or that thing thing and they're propping me up and being really you know adulatory to me and there there's just so much there that can go so wrong so fast and it can lead to all kinds of excesses that we've seen I mean goodness you don't have to look far to find abuse scandals of every kind in every denomination ever if there's one guy at the top that sort of thing just almost can naturally follow if you're if you're I don't even want to say if you're not careful that's sort of what it produces because power corrupts in that way so it's like it's internal it's individual and it's like in group and it's like our group and not others and it's like that's the focus and that's what we're tempted by is it's internal it's prideful it's us it's our group and it's cloistering away and it's being this closed off separate thing that's just

[1:30:41] gonna die and wither right yes and it seems like the call is to be more others focused more outward more external both in terms of other believers in your own con text like hey me as a pastor it's not all about me it's all about Jesus and I want to help us as a community open up and live together as though Jesus is King in this context and not just us but other churches in our area who who else can we look outward to find and partner with um there's even an outward sense of like let's look for people that we want to protect our folks from out of you know on the outside but we're looking to them and maybe we can win them in and and love them but let's also look at the world and the rest of the people who are in our context let's

[1:31:28] look outward rather than Inward and try to find people that we can invite in and and do it in such a way that it's not this big huge crazy commitment that seems impossible you have to have a perfect family and then you have to have perfect Doctrine and then you can start talking to people and then you have to talk to them the perfect way no you can invite them to a meal and just do life in some ways and invite them into something but it's like that feels like the dichotomy to me is it's like there's this internal cloistering away with me mind and getting my way and it's all about me and my power and what I want versus an external like looking at God first it's about Jesus and then opening your eyes to see where there might be other opportunities to see grow there's a reason why there's a lot of narcissists who become pastors because in that structure it is so easy to do that and in a lot of ways it's reteaching people in almost

[1:32:19] lowering you know pushing myself back down of no we we are all the body of Christ um yeah I I may get paid to do some certain things and to help certain things and I love doing those things I you know I'm I'm a nerd I could study theology all day for fun you know that back in school because I love it and I wan to I want to know things I want to teach people the right way and help with that but I'm a human I'm a flawed person in so many ways and and it's been interesting just as a byproduct of that within our church church as we've had different people you know visit things like that is the people who want to come sit and consume don't tend to stay and I'm like right that's that's what I'm going for

[1:33:06] because if that's what they think that they can come and just sit and consume and they're going to be happy and not challenged on that then I'm doing something wrong because it's we have to have a part of this if if that's where you're at then there's plenty of other places and God bless you know I ain't looking down at anybody some people that's if that's all you know and there's some that get challenged by that because you know again it's easy just to just sit and not participate you know we all need you know breaks and some sabbaths here and there with that it is nice it's always weird being a pastor going on vacation it's it's nice going somewhere they don't know your pastor because then though you could just sit and and actually you know just kind of chill a little bit um but yeah it's we're all having a part of this and of kind of retraining myself and having people of

[1:33:58] if I'm getting off on this if I'm ever getting a power trip I need to be checked I need to make sure that that is not happening or if we as our men who are leading it and doing different decisions no if we're you know you know not using humility you know it can go south very quickly and we've been very blessed with men who modeled that for me and for our church and it just you just see that you know when the the people who are quote unquote in charge are humble down to earth you know serving first people to serve you know like Deacon you know it's kind a servant you know when they're actually serving and doing that oh that's the expectation no one no one is above or beneath any certain thing where previously it was oh you're the pastor no we don't let you

[1:34:46] set up the tables and chairs you have more important things to do I remember being people were like literally were taking chairs out of my hand I'm like what what's going on here like I'm not too good to set up a table and chair and it just kind of funny it's like oh no you've got more important things to do it's like what are you talking about like and again now it's like that whole second you that whole divide you know it's no we can do it together it's fine my job is it better than yours you know and we need more people who are ready to teach and be you know growing all these things too not just leave it to the professionals it's beautiful yeah I'm lowering bar PR professional that's that's my goal yeah I use too much humor at times but I I would rather air that way than the other what you see is what you get for

[1:35:35] for better or worse so yeah if yeah if if all if all my life is is a uh is a beacon that leads people to Jesus either by seeing what God does right through me or how God forgives me from what I do wrong like if either of those things is a win for me in that it gets people to consider Jesus more so that's beautiful man I love it well I've again I've deeply appreciated your time this has been a ton of fun for me and I um I'm in a new season where I have some renewed hope that there are um that there are expressions of something that I think is extra biblical that can nevertheless be guiding people and working towards the biblical goals even if it's not my fullon zero tolerance policy

[1:36:24] abolitionist I want to see everyone do this and that whatever like if you can do that in your own personal life and you can find a way to do that in the healthy the healthy way that the scriptures talk about that's great but people like you are giving me hope that um that there are ways to accomplish the same goals inside of an inside of the same system that I think is extra biblical or whatever and that I might wish to see come down but I'm still seeing I'm seeing God at work in our context because again we've transitioned into a place that is um feels very much like an answer to for us in this season of life and I know that there have been a lot of people who've been asking me in comments and dming me on Facebook asking how we're doing on that very good news we're doing really well on that front um but that there are other that there's Josh hams out there who are uh existing in that space straddling that world and yet still being precise and clear in the

[1:37:14] thinking and the language and not giving into the excesses and kind of taking up the one ring to you try to use the enemy's power against him it doesn't work you're just going to get corrupted by that thing but to set that all aside and say okay this is the system we are working with how can we leverage this to bring the most benefit and and exist in this way in a way that is the most biblically consistent without giving into the excesses and so you've given me a lot of Hope and I appreciate you for it hey anytime and I could talk for hours and hours on this so it's just it's always encouraging to hear God working in other people and especially hearing people are struggling and you know they're breathing that new life the new Air again and that's encouraging to have any small part for anyone else who gets any form of encouragement um and know that you're not alone there's many

[1:38:04] who have walked that way and there is there there are some those weird ones out there still and pray that you find them or become one yeah that's good man well I love it um is there obviously you're pastor of a church people can find your stuff there and probably you know recorded sermons and all that stuff but um where can people go if they want to hear more from Josh ham and they want to hear more of your way of thinking and what you're doing out there um where can people go to find more of that even if it's just the Church website for now yeah um steam Valley Bible Church in Trout Run Pennsylvania good luck finding that it's just right above wport Pennsylvania home of the Little League World Series which was just the couple weeks ago H that's that's where're at I'm on Facebook Joshua ham so I haven't um put a lot of material or anything

[1:38:52] like that just sermons maybe one day when I finish my degree I'll be smart enough then to put more stuff out there so um still still working through things so I like to engage in different Facebook groups stuff like that so cool yeah the Trinity guys are trying to get me to join and uh and come in so we'll see what that looks like but we might be class they're probably trying to get you to sign up for classes that's probably what they're trying to do yeah that's what they're doing that's what they're doing so regardless that's awesome that's awesome uh I love it man well I I appreciate your time uh if people want to go and and hear more of your teachings I'll get a I'll get a link into the description for them to go and be able to get more access to you and uh you know hopefully someday soon you feel the spirit kind of pulling you to put some material out there to bless others

[1:39:39] because um whatever whatever is going on in the Christian space there's not enough about there's not enough about what you've found and what you've talked about so I think people could use to hear it more but we'll see appreciate I appreciate you and uh you're welcome back on anytime I'll look for opportunity to bring you bring you aboard because I think there's more we can talk about even that we didn't touch on today but uh all right man well I appreciate you have an amazing rest of your day and we'll we'll see you around all right thanks so much