FOUR Views on God’s Providence & the Future – Bible SHOWDOWN

[0:00] in my last video I personally raked John Calvin over the Kohls I made my simplest 30 minute case that not only is Calvinism at odds with philosophy scripture and the way we all make our way through the world it's a demonic deception that makes God the author of all evil and in fact the devil behind the devil and it made a lot of you mad that's okay I'm okay with that we all need our beliefs challenged from time to time including me I'm not immune and we need to understand why we believe what we believe so that we're not on Shaky Ground but what I didn't do was provide you with any alternatives what good is it to blow up bad theology if we don't build up something better in its place today we're going to look at the four live options for squaring God's sovereignty with Man's Free Will and we're going to run them through the same battery of tests that Calvinism failed

[0:48] to see which of them makes the most sense philosophically biblically and practically but before I go any further being right on this doesn't save you faith in Christ SA saves you you can be right about everything but Jesus and it just won't do you any good I have friends all over the map who love the Lord and love others but beliefs have consequences so let's lay out the case for all four of these views and land on one that I think makes the most philosophical sense scriptural sense and practical sense in our everyday lives strap in this one should be a blast first up is the worldview called Armenian ISM not Armenian ISM and they're not called Armenians that's a nationality from a different country Armenians follow the teachings of a guy named Jacob armenius and we'll get into

[1:36] all this in a minute but what we're discussing is how God relates to the Future and in the Armenian view this is what's called philosophically speaking simple forn knowledge every future fact is certain and exhaustively known by God and it cannot be changed everything is still faded ahead of time now not all Armenians think this but it's a pretty good representation of their view but on this view God simply simply knows the future he simply understands everything that will happen but it's not necessarily him bringing it about but when it comes to accepting Christ they still think you need a little extra enabling Grace from God a prevenient Grace in their words in order to accept the gospel but scripturally there are several verses which seem you know on the surface to be communicating this Armenians affirm that humans are responsible before God for their choices

[2:24] including how they respond to the message of the gospel and there are many instances when God knows things well in advance all of those stances are totally reasonable from scripture however they assume just like the calvinist does that because God knows many future events well in advance that he must therefore know everything about the future in advance in exhaustive detail even though there are several situations in scripture where God didn't see something coming or regretted the outcome of his own choices or even had to test somebody in order to find out what was in their heart so the calvinist thinks that God knows the future exhaustively because they think think he determined it he decided exactly what would happen and everything's happening exactly the way that he wanted the way that he decreed from before he even founded the world The Armenian believes that God simply knows what will happen but he doesn't

[3:12] bring it about however both of them perform What's called the Hasty generalization fallacy what the heck is that well it means where if something is true in one instance it is assumed that it must be true in all instances so God knows one thing ahead of time and therefore he knows everything ahead of time but that's a little bit like saying hey did you hear about those teenagers who mugged that old man and stole his gold pocket watch to your friend right and then your friend answers back yeah teenagers are all horrible people who mug the elderly right that's not true it's a hasty generalization so if it can be credibly shown that God doesn't know absolutely everything about the future in exhaustive detail then arminianism claims fall apart just like calvinism's claims do but practically speaking this is kind of a puzzling View because God

[4:00] knows everything including all of those who would freely choose him as well as Every Act of sin and every evil deed before any of them ever happened and yet still says that we're free to do them from all eternity on the Armenian view he's seen what's coming Cosmic War horror pain sin of all kinds The Suffering The unending plight of the Damned and he can even foresee how we will respond to these tragedies once they occur but he's not doing anything ahead of time to avoid them he's also like hopelessly locked into an unending Vision that he can't do anything about so the question for me becomes twofold what is God doing in the meantime if if he forn knows the future and yet didn't make it all happen via a decree like the calvinist says isn't he just another

[4:48] passive captor of Fate right if he didn't determine all things to happen exactly the way that he wanted them to and yet he knows all that will happen where's the room for his intervention and how does that work my second question is if there there's even one instance of God not knowing something then maybe the simple for knowledge view just doesn't hold any water right what should we believe in that case for now we're going to move on to one of the more intriguing options molinism philosophically where arminianism can be described as simple forn knowledge molinism is best described by the phrase middle knowledge which is knowledge of all if then statements okay the truth values of all if then statements a molinist would say and I'm I'm saying this a former molinist right they would say that God knows all things that would happen if all these variables were true

[5:36] okay these are called subjunctive counterfactuals it says if Tim Barber had a million dollar he would buy a house but it also says if this person born at this time in this part of the world to these parents at this time of year at this time of day in this part of the country localized entirely within your kitchen with this education and these experiences finds them in this situation they would do this and there's no other outcome in other words molinism only allows for what people would do given all of those inputs but it still has no place to put possibilities or ideas or decisions people could make in the moment it still posits that God knows absolutely everything that will happen it just kind of gets to that result by way of saying that God knows what everybody would do in every

[6:24] possible set of circumstances so if you stop and think about this molinism is a massive boost to the amount of things that God knows the molist makes this appeal by saying that their view of God gives God more knowledge than either the calvinist or the Armenian views which are really kind of right next to each other in terms of what God knows God's knowledge of the future on Calvinism and arminianism is one straight unchanging line of what will happen molinism is an infinitely branching web of possibilities through which God has drawn a straight line by cre creating this specific world molinism says that God created this specific world to maximize the amount of creaturely flourishing the amount of people who come to faith in Christ and the and to minimize the amount of of suffering and

[7:14] and gratuitous evil in the world so God knowing all of the different variables and all the different ways that things could play out and knowing every possible outcome of every possible set of variables in the lives of every possible person created this world rather than any other to maximize what he wants to minimize what he doesn't but here's the rub on molinism God knows all possible Futures with specificity and yet he still chose to instantiate this one which still makes him the one who determined that this world and not some other world would be the one he created it's really a utilitarian view it it means that he chose permitted allowed and approved everything that happens in this world as his best bet for getting the outcome he wants which makes him both the author and executor of everything just like he is in Calvinism we've talked about molinism

[8:02] philosophical stance scripturally there are some pretty cool passages that seem on the surface to show a molist point of view 1 Samuel 23 comes to mind when David is at Kila in fact let's go over there now and have a look at what it says there so starting from verse one one day news came to David that the Philistines were at Kila stealing grain from the threshing floors David asked the Lord should I go and attack them yes go and save Kila the the Lord told him but David's men saidwe afraid even here in Judah we certain don't want to go to kila to fight the whole Philistine Army so David asked the Lord again and again the Lord replied go down to kila for I will help you conquer the Philistines so David and his men went to kila they slaughtered the Philistines and took all their livestock and rescued the people of Kila now when abiatar son of aim fled to David at Kila he brought the aod with him Saul learned that David was at Kila now remember David and Saul are at odds

[8:49] in this part of the story Saul is the current King David is God's anointed king to take over the kingdom after he's taken it from Saul and Saul wants to get David killed there's this conflict there good he exclaimed we've got him now God has handed him over to me for he has trapped himself in a walled town so Saul mobilized his entire Army to March tequila and besiege David and his men here's where it goes into sort of mol territory where it's like if this then that right have a listen to the language here David learned of Saul's plan and told abatar the priest to bring the aod and ask the Lord what he should do then David prayed oh Lord God of Israel I've heard that Saul is planning to come and destroy Kila because I am here will the leaders of Kila betray me to him and will Saul actually come as I have heard oh Lord God of Israel please tell me and the Lord said he will come and again David asked will the leaders of Kila

[9:37] betray me and my men to Saul and the Lord replied yes they will betray you so David and his men about 600 of them now left Kela and began roaming the countryside words soon reached Saul that David had escaped so he didn't go to kila after all David now stayed in the strongholds of the Wilderness and in the Hill Country of sea Saul hunted him day after day but God didn't let Saul find him so David asks God a m a molist would say like a good molist David asks God would I if I stay here are these people going to give me to Saul and is Saul going to capture and kill me and God says yep that's what's going to happen so David hearing that makes a different Choice he he he goes in a different direction that does not lead to that outcome that God says would happen if he were to stay right so that seems on the surface like God's saying

[10:26] okay if this then that if this then that and you he has the freedom to choose but God this is one of the rare instances in the pages of scripture where God kind of lets you in on that fact if that's if the molist frame is true and again I think that that's a pretty intuitive grasp of that passage there's nothing wrong with that interpretation but it might be making the same Hasty generalization fallacy where since this instance works that way the Hasty generalization would be that all things work that way that if this instance God gave David choices and said look if you go this way it's this is going to happen if you go this way this is going to happen that everything must be that way that everything must function that way it's taking one specific instance of a way that things happened in this this one this one piece of the story and then just assuming that the rest of the story functions that exact same way now there

[11:13] are other passages that seem to point to an inference of that kind but I'm not convinced that that's generally the way that everything works so we've looked at the philosophical stance we've looked at the scriptural stance now let's look at the Practical stance practically this is an awful deal for God do we really want to say that we believe God knows absolutely everything that could even possibly happen and then say that this world is the best that he could do I suppose on one hand that would point out how depraved humans are but is it is it really worth it if God knew absolutely everything that could happen and this world as it is is the world that brings the maximum number of people to Faith minimizes human suffering and brings God the most Glory do we really want to say that we think this is the best that God could do I don't know that I would be

[12:00] willing to say that what's more do we want to believe that God not only knows all sins that will happen whether he makes them happen as in Calvinism or simply foresees them as in arminianism but that he also knows all possible other combinations of sinful activities that are possible amongst all creatures everywhere a molist has to affirm that God knows all the horrifying vile and sorted outcomes just for one random example of every possible combination of willing or unwilling sexual partners everywhere in the cosmos as well as all of the infinitely cascading effects of all of those choices does the bible portray God as knowing all of those things with such specificity in fact there's another story that I think we

[12:48] need to account for where God actually says that something happened that he didn't anticipate in fact there are several stories like this so This is Jeremiah 19 and I'm going to just start from sort of halfway through verse three here says behold I am going to bring a disaster upon this place at which the ears of everyone that hears of it will tingle since they have abandoned me and have made this place foreign and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known and since they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal a thing which I did not command nor speak of nor did it ever enter my mind therefore behold days are coming

[13:37] declares the Lord when this place will no longer be called Toth or the valley of Ben hinom but rather the valley of Slaughter and I will frustrate the planning of Judah and Jerusalem in this place and I will make them fall by the sword by their enemies and by the hand of those who seek their life listen close God said and this is Jeremiah Jeremiah purports to speak for the Lord and if you're a false prophet you get killed for speaking for the Lord out of ter turn or misrepresenting him with your words God says In this passage it never entered into my mind that they would do something so vile and so evil and I don't know about you but I'm inclined to take God at his word when he says that these people freely chose to do something that was so horrific that God does not want you to think that it was originating in his mind that it was something that came from his thoughts in fact he goes out of his way to tell you

[14:25] this is not something that he thought up for me that's sounds like he didn't decree for it to happen exactly that way from before the foundation of the world he didn't eternally forn know that this would happen and then do nothing to stop it and he also didn't instantiate a world where this was just one of many trade-offs he had to make in order to get the best outcome this was something that originated in human Minds that that was we could say even that originated in the minds of demonic spirits that then deceived humans and caused them to want to do this horrible horrible thing but whatever it is it didn't originate in God's mind and he didn't eternally forn know it and when it was made as a choice it was something that he abhorred and he he couldn't support humans did this of their own free will which is why they're standing in judgment but again I think

[15:13] that the main point is that this is this if molinism were true I would say that that sounds like you know on molinism this could just be a hasty generalization fallacy it could simply be that we're seeing the way that certain things work in certain instances and declaring that it must be that way absolutely everywhere else which I don't think stands to reason and once again honestly this makes me think as with both of the other views is God able to step in and intervene does does he simply know in advance when he will intervene and when he won't to bring about his preferred vision of the future doesn't that make this whole thing a bit like a trolley problem for God if he knew in advance that rather than one quadrillion people on this track he'd simply sacrifice one trillion lives on this track even though he's the one who set up all possible trolley problem configurations and started the trolley moving and chose the world where all of

[16:01] these people are the ones who die and not these ones right doesn't that still make God the one who determined who would die and who wouldn't and if that's the case then in any of these three views Calvinism arminianism or molinism there's there's a few properties that they all share one God knows ahead of time absolutely everything that will happen and he essentially either does nothing to stop it or he causes it to happen exactly the way that it does every one of these involves God being either the author or the enabler of evil the other thing that all have in common is that they're all absolutist positions which means that the the the advancement of the claim is that it's 100% of the time it works this way and if it's only 99% of the time this is no longer a true model Calvinism says that God determined 100% of all things that would happen arminianism says that God fornew 100% of all things that would happen exactly the

[16:50] way that they happened and molinism simply says that God knew fornew 100% of all possible things that could have happened and then he chose this one which means of course if he knows all of those other things as well that whole big spiderweb he knows this smaller chunk of the spider web the straight line that he drew through it he knew everything that would happen and he chose this path anyway so every school shooting every child that's harmed by by you know unwelcome behavior from an adult I can't there's things I can't say on YouTube Every things like the Holocaust all of those were eternally forn and and God did nothing to to avoid them on these views they're forn or God made it happen exactly the way that he wanted which brings us to to the fourth view which is called open theism or an open view of the future which is what I prefer the open view of the future basically states that God still knows the future

[17:38] perfectly but he doesn't make category errors where he he knows future possibilities as possibilities where if someone still has to make a choice he doesn't know what their choice will be yet because they have they have yet they have yet to make the choice future certainties are things that he knows as future certainties and most of the time those future future certainties are certainties because God himself has decided ahead of time to bring it about by his power it's not something he's merely predicting and then he does nothing to intervene as though he's simply a passive Observer of the path the path of time running past him and he says there's that thing I said would happen he says I will do this in the future and I will bring this about and he's declaring that ahead of time so that when he brings it about by his power you don't give the credit to anybody else but this is a view that if

[18:27] you don't have 100% absolute truth in Calvinism arminianism or molinism and you find that there's even one chance in the Bible there's one time anywhere in the scriptures that either God regretted something that he chose to do himself or God tests to know what's in someone's heart because he didn't know it ahead of time or he doesn't get what he wants or he doesn't see something coming or something didn't enter into his mind which is all over the pages of scripture you get into this view open theism the other views if I'm being really candidate are actually very easy to falsify because the minute you prove a single exception the absolutist positions all crumble so if you go from 100% of all events being determined down to 99% you've entered the realm of

[19:16] what's called Dynamic omniscience or open theism it could still be that 99% of things are determined it could be that only 1% of things are determined or it's probably somewhere on the slider in between those two values but as long as it's not 100% the other views aren't true what this allows is for you to say that God has he has knowledge of the future but he doesn't commit those category errors he knows possibilities as possible he he knows that there are percentage chances based on what people will choose to do in response to to his guidance he takes risks he risks outcomes that he might not want he tries to partner with people who end up disappointing him and this one enshrines above all of the other views the the awfulness of human decision- making God's ultimate purposes are

[20:03] unassailable he is absolutely the most brilliant tactician and strategist possible he will bring about by his own power and by faithful obedient partnership with people who do stand the test of time and stand against Temptations to serve and honor God with their choices in life to bring about his plans and his purposes for the ultimate future but in the meantime human beings fight against God at every turn scripturally that's that's the philosophical case scripturally we talked about a lot of verses last time where again God seeks to know he goes looking for someone to stand in the Gap and he finds no one God tests to know what's in someone's heart right he tests Abraham with the sacrifice of Isaac to test him and see if he's willing to obey even things that sound crazy to him we

[20:51] just went through that Jeremiah verse where something clearly did not enter into God's mind that humans ended up doing which was vile those are all outcomes he didn't anticipate and they're recorded for you on the pages of scripture and you can't anthropomorphize them and say oh that's just God wanting to make himself seem more human to us so that we can understand him better that's a lie that would make what God Said in his word about himself a lie now scripturally speaking there are a lot of other verses that make the case that God doesn't always get what he wants and that the people stubbornly refuse to listen to him and then they bring consequences upon themselves that God didn't want for for them because of their own foolish and sinful choices Deuteronomy 1 is actually full of all sorts of things like that where you know even back in the the 20s Moses is writing this right and says and they

[21:39] took some of the fruit of the land in their hands and brought it down to us they also brought us back a report and said the land that the Lord our God is about to give us is good yet you were unwilling to go up and instead you rebelled against the command of the Lord your God or all the way down in verse 43 he says really let's look at 42 the Lord said to me this is Moses again say to themo not go up nor fight for I'm not among you otherwise you'll be defeated by your enemies so I spoke to you but you would not listen instead you rebelled against the command of the Lord and acted presumptuously and went up into the Hill Country so all of Deuteronomy 1 is is Moses saying look God told us this and this and this and this and this and you guys just fought him and disobeyed and rebelled at every turn and look at what ruin it's brought on your life a lot of sin and a lot of evil and a lot of death and a lot of Brokenness comes from our refusal to listen to God even when he's making his

[22:26] case so earnestly and wants nothing more than for us to listen to him and he knows what will happen if we don't obey but he takes the risk anyway to relate to people who are obstinate and stiff necked who don't want to obey him and that makes a lot more sense if he didn't determine that they would all act like this ahead of time in fact if we go to Romans 10 Paul is writing this in Romans 910 and 11 are used a lot by Calvinists to try to make their case because they misinterpret some language that he uses that arises from Jeremiah 18 and this this whole thing they try to make it sound like God chooses who he will save and who he won't on no like on an arbitrary basis in order to support a Doctrine that's called double predestination which I flatly refuse but the way that Paul sort of ties a bow on this line of thinking is comes at the end of chapter 10 he's talking about how

[23:15] faith is necessary to come to to Salvation right but faith comes by hearing and hearing comes from the word of God and the word of God is spoken by a preacher who is sent and he's saying that's what these people need but then he stops and he says but surely they have never heard have they on the contrary their voice has gone out into all the Earth and their words to the ends of the world but I say surely Israel did not know did they first Moses says I will make you jealous with those who are not a nation with a foolish Nation I will anger you and Isaiah is very bold and says I was found by those who did not seek me I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me but as for Israel he says I have spread out my hands all day long to a disobedient and obstinate people now call me crazy but

[24:04] it seems a little bit strange to stretch out your hands and reach out lovingly for an obstinate and disobedient people if I determined from from before the foundation of the world that they would be disobedient and obstinate against me if I eternally fornew that they would be disobedient and obstinate against me and that they wouldn't listen no matter what I said or if I instantiated this world out of all possible choices I had and I knew that given all of this set of circumstances these people would be disobedient and obstinate no matter what I said to them that's weird Behavior if I knew ahead of time exactly how that would come out if God knew that these people would reject him no matter what it strikes me as really strange to say that he was stretching his hands out all day long to disobedient and obstinate people who wouldn't listen I think it makes a lot more sense to say that God

[24:52] they always have the live choice in front of them they can choose to obey or they can choose to disobey they can choose life or they can choose death and God is making an active appeal that he hopes they will freely choose but he doesn't know which one will come out yet but he's making his appeal that they choose life and they choose him and they choose to honor Jesus as their Lord but the very fact that he's making the case means that it's still a live option for them he's heartbroken that they continue to choose obstinate Disobedience but he keeps making his case hoping that they will instead choose life and obedience and I think that this is perfectly encapsulated in the words of Jesus himself at the end of Matthew 23 when he's coming into uh Jerusalem and he's pronouncing all of these woes and you get to the very end he says Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills the prophets and Stones those who have been sent to her

[25:42] how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings and you were unwilling behold your house is being left to you desolate for I say to you from now on you will not see me until you say blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord now he says how often I wanted I wanted to gather you all like like like a hen does to her chicks and you were unwilling the reason Jesus did not get what he wanted in this instance was because they were unwilling to let him again let's look at all three of the other live options if God determines everything he determined them to be unwilling if he eternally fornew that they would be unwilling simply through by looking ahead through the halls of time to say that they were unwilling he knew they would be so why would he why would he be sad if this is

[26:30] exactly what he knew was going to happen all along he knew it was going to happen and if he instantiated this world out of all other possible worlds he chose this he chose that they would be unwilling but if they still have a live choice if the future isn't completely and exhaustively settled but they still have say so to bring about changes based on their own decisions then they could at any time have freely chosen to come to Jesus and allow him to gather them and take care of them the way that he wanted to they were unwilling so this view which I prefer to call Dynamic omnics again it's open theism or the open view of the future or the openness position uh I prefer Dynamic omniscience because it allows for God to still know all things for what they are he can know all things all things that are future certainties he knows his future certainties future things that are up in the air based on the choices of people

[27:17] and even based on his own decisions things that are future possibilities he knows them as future possibilities and this absolves God of any original ating responsibility for sinful choices of human beings in fact this brings us sort of the Practical implications of this view this view shows that your boneheaded choices actually matter and there are things that hang in the balance of our willingness and then our follow through on obedience to Jesus our choices can actually lead to negative outcomes in our life and in the lives of other people we are free to obey or disobey God and he didn't make you do anything nor did he eternally Forno everything you were going to do and then fail to stop you now Dynamic omnition isn't free of its headaches and problems

[28:06] no system of interpretation is but it seems to make the most flexible sense of scripture while still making God The Sovereign ruler over all things the one who has the right to set what the rules are what the punishments and rewards are for those who choose to obey those rules God is the highest authority to which we can appeal and that's what sovereignty means and it still allows him to be good and loving and perfectly just in judging evil that arose from Human irresponsibility it makes sense of God knowing some things about the future as is clearly written down in the scriptures God clearly knows certain things about the future and in fact he can determine whole long strings of things to be brought about including Cyrus's decree to let the people of of Jerusalem go back and rebuild the city the entire plan of the Messiah coming to fruition in Jesus is something that God

[28:56] had been foretelling from Genesis 3 and that's something that he brought about not by just passively observing the facts before before time he promised this and he brought it about by his own wisdom and power so I'm not saying that God doesn't know certain things about the future with certainty he makes certain things happen with certainty but those things are good and beautiful plans for his people major punishments for his enemies that rebel against him and his future plans for restoring the entire Cosmos in short all good things he doesn't eternally Forno things like the Holocaust will happen and then sit on his hands doing nothing about it those are evil human choices that arise from our own deceived minds and the machinations of spiritual enemies that want to go contrary to God's views and God's Will and God's stated purposes and

[29:44] to take the world back into chaos the way that it was in the garden when the the serpent deceived Adam and Eve from the very beginning so look this is my case I've made my case this is what I think makes the most sense of scriptures if you're interested in this kind of thing there's another there's several other YouTube channels and several other books I could recommend god of the possible by Greg Boyd is probably the best introduction and as far as YouTube channels my friend Warren mcru who runs the YouTube channel idle killer is also someone who speaks about these things in great philosophical depth if you want to know more about what this looks like in Practical day-to-day living that material is great so chances are you disagree with me about certain things right we've gone over Calvinism we've gone over arminianism we've gone over molinism and then we've gone over D Dynamic omniscience and we've sort of looked at different scriptural positions to sort of back up those claims or to refute those claims but chances are that

[30:32] you've probably got some passages in mind where you think I'm wrong and that's completely fine as long as you have your faith in Christ you're part of the kingdom of God and so am I no one is kicking each other out of the Kingdom I'm simply looking for the most consistent hermeneutics I'm looking for the most consistent ways of interpreting the scriptures and this is the one that I think allows for all of the different outcomes we find on the pages of scripture without doing violent to the text it allows determined things to be determined it allows things that are forn to be forn it allows things that are predestined to be predestined it allows things that are uncertain to be uncertain without dogmatically pushing down all of the others and saying it happens this way in one case that means it must happen this way in every case but if you think I'm wrong and you've got a way to refute me I'm going to issue the same challenge I did in the

[31:18] previous video If I'm Wrong tell me pop it in the comment section I'm more than happy I've already got a couple of comments from the other video that am writing down and I'm going to go and prepare videos specifically there's a person who commented about John 6 and several passages about how you know Jesus the the people that God draws that God gives to Jesus or that Jesus gives to God are the ones that he will save and nobody else which sounds kind of like that double predestination thing I'm going to address it but if you've got something you think is a knockout drag down case for why I'm wrong pop it in the comments and give me a chance to respond I would love to I'll do it in love not always gentle but I do love you guys as long as we're on this same page about who Jesus is and what he's come to do and what he did in sacrificing himself on the cross and and raising again in the third day de defeating sin

[32:05] and death forever as long as we're on the same page about that you and I are both in the kingdom of God and I'm grateful to be able to call you a brother but speaking of God's plans for eternity here's another video where we explore a little bit more in detail about what God wants to do with this Earth and what that means for us both in eternity and in the meantime I hope you enjoy it further up and further in